Deck "Schema"

[Greg the Yeti]

Hi and thanks for all the goodies in version 10!

In exploring these goodies I noticed under Cards / Zoom on a Card, the options of the Deck's "Schema".

I happened to be using a non standard Deck (surprise surprise!) and the options were listed as
1) Tarot
2) Cartomancy
3) "Parent Folder" / "Deck Name"

I noted that when switched to this "Schema" all of the positions are currently blank. It does not appear to be possible to enter the correct designation (yet!)

Will there be any option for people creating non-standard Decks to define the "Schema" for the Deck and perhaps to include it in the Deck's Folder as an xml file?

Some Decks would innevitably be "One of a Kind". however might it be useful to have the possibility to share some other "Schemas".

I can already think of a few that would be useful for more than just one Deck:-

1) 2nd Tarot Schema for the ones listed the "Other Way Round" - VIII vs XI
2) Playing Card
3) Spanish Playing Card
4) Tarot Majors (perhaps the existing "Tarot" scheme works for this?)
5) I Ching
6) Ling Qi Jing
7) Tao Te Ching
8) T'ai Hsuan Ching
9) The "Spanish" schema for the Tarot - which seems to be different with Minors listed in a different order? (Is this different order of Minors shared with other Latin Europeans?)

and possibly a few more...

If this system were enabled to be more complete, it might help Deck Comparisons to be more useful and accurate, especially for Decks that deviate from the "Standard"!

Regards Greg

[Programmer]

Yes, this is something I knew that would come along when I coded it. I think it should

a) Let you load up custom name lists.
b) Give you more choice to begin with.

Not sure there will be time to bring it in this time round as once again I am getting towards the end of my tarot programming window for the year and we are still finding bugs, so obviously that takes priority. What stopped me when I was programming this is I simply didn't know what to put as alternatives. For example, what are the positions in the Ling Qi Jing? Could you send me a list of the names of each position?

As far as the 08 v. 11 conundrum goes, I did add an Option on the Default Settings tab so you can decide which way around they go by default in the tarot name lists. There is also an 08 v. 11 tool on the Current Deck tab, which lets you swap these two cards in the deck (i.e. rename the image files and rewrite the card notes from one position to another).

[Greg the Yeti]

Hi Richard,
since you like the idea (and had already thought of it) and since you're such a good "Programmer God" - spending time listening to us and sorting our problems - I'll spend a little time and get those schemas for other non-standard Decks that I use and know about. I'll get them back to you just as soon as...

Regards Greg

Actually I was just thinking, there is another pair of schemas that will prove very useful indeed for those using the I Ching. They could compare:-
a) The Traditional I Ching order (ie not quite totally random, but TOTALLY buggered by the later Confusians - ie a traditional LACK of order)
b) The (SYO) "Shao Yung" Order, an "Octal" order, in which some kind soul has shared many examples on the Deck Share.

I don't know if at some time it might enable the direct use of one by a fan of the other one. A bit like you've enabled a direct switching of VIII and XI in this current new version! That would be nice - but don't loose sleep!!

Actually, really don't loose sleep on that one, since a Stalwart of the "Traditional Lack of Order" would not like the fact that the (SYO) cards are simply not numbered in Arabic Numerals at all and the notes themselves are numbered in the (SYO) manner. So it might be work that wouldn't get any appreciation!!

BUT - For someone who stumbles upon this new (SYO) order, it would be very instructive to be able to compare the two!

[Greg the Yeti]

Hi Richard, I've started work on compiling some ideas for Non-Standard Schemas for various Decks.

I've used an Excel file as it allows easy sorting and also colour coding to SEE very clearly what "goin' on".

It's by no means finished but I thought that if the Forum allows me to up load an excel file then I can show you how that work is progressing.
Shame - The Forum Doesn't allow an excel file. I'll e-mail it to you.

I've "Blanked In" ideas for some of the "Strange" Oracles, without getting the entries done yet.
What I have done is a few Tarot Decks, various English Language options and then a couple of Spanish decks I have to illustrate how different they actually are!
Among the "English" options I chose to include the "Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot" because of the Author Paul Huson's attempt to look at the origins of the Tarot.

For those Spanish Decks I've stuck with exactly how the Cards came out of the Pack, or exactly the order as it is in the LWB.

1) The Tarot Intuitvo:-
shows a Spanish "Ryder Waite" Clone, and is fairly clear. It's only renamed a few of the Majors and has the "Switched VIII and XI". Probably lots of other "Translation Decks" are similar?

2) The Tarot "Favole":-
This is a HOMEGROWN Spanish Tarot!
It has two entries, since there is a different schema evident in the LWB and in the cards themselves. Again I've highlighted differences with colours. Now here there is a LOT of difference! The WHOLE of the Minor Arcana - WHICHEVER of the two schemas you use!

3) The "Tarot Ruso de San Petersburgo":-
Also a HOMEGROWN Spanish Tarot!
This has "Switched VIII and XI" PLUS the whole of the Minor Arcana is in a different order to the standard. To make things confusing it also differs from the "Tarot Favole".

With regard to a "Spanish Schema" - I don't think that there is "ONE" but a few different ways of doing things.

It's mostly in the Minor Arcana.
a) A different order of the Suits. 1) Swords, Clubs, Cups, Coins
b) A second different order of the Suits 2) Swords Cups Clubs Coins
c) Listing the Cards from King Downwards
d) Or listing them Court Cards First (upwards) and then Ace Up

I know some "Ryder Waite" enthusiasts might Poo Poo the whole idea of a different Spanish Schema, but they can simply follow the standard schema, this is for the OTHERS!

Spain rightly has a claim in the "Route of Arrival" of Tarot to Europe. Not only through the "Moors" but also through more ancient possibilities of Egyptian Exoduses to Spain (see Ralph Ellis "Scota Egyptian Queen of the Scots" among several of his books!)
The Spanish Playing Card Suits seem altogether more "Original" to me! Not a surprise since they closely mirror the Moorish Decks.
The King first order is what is to be rightly expected of an ancient source!!

So I would like to "Suggest" at least two potential Spanish "schema" for the Tarot.
We have here on Orphalese a number of Spanish Tarot enthusiasts. It would be most interesting to get their take on this!!

Regards
Greg

[Greg the Yeti]

I've been doing some work on my Decks, sometimes manually logging in the "Card Names" and sometimes using the much quicker "Import" method. I'm coming up with lots of ideas. Two for today, that I'll put as seperate posts.
- - -
With regard to the actual CONTENT and FORMAT of the new "Card Name" field.

I've done a couple of my very "Non Standard" Decks, and for those I'm assuming that all that can be done is to use the name given on the cards.

But for all those that are direct Clones of the Standard Decks I presume you want the names as in the Standard "Tarot" Schema - to allow easy use with whatever you are using them for, or planning for the future. Card Comparison etc.

For SOME Tarots it isn't perhaps so obvious what to do.
a) If for example the Deck uses Pentacles instead of Coins. Very Common!
b) or if all the suits have been re-named according to the Four Elements. Quite Common.
c) Another renaming of the Suits along even more "alternative" ideas. Examples "Witchy Tarot" or "Vision Quest Tarot" or "Merlin Tarot" among numerous others!
d) Those decks which switch VIII and XI. Extremely Common.
e) Some Decks have kept the regular suits but have changed the names of the Court/Royals.

Now these should have those alternative names already IN the Card Notes. The question is a matter of policy. To enable your ideas on "Card Comparison" and the existing "Switcheroo" for VIII and XI, what do YOU as the programmer want us to do? I think you need to tell us clearly!

Do you want for all 78 card Tarots, people to use the Standard "Schema" to allow comparisons? Or may people duplicate the actual card names from the Card Notes/Cards?

If this isn't clear, then a multitude of potentially conflicting schemas will appear, even for Tarot and possibly bugger up "Comparing Cards"?

Meanwhile of course,for most Oracles, their schemas will most likely be "One of a Kind" so Real Card Names presumably just get duplicated! More work, but less anxst?

For Decks using the VIII 2 XI switch, if one uses the "Import" for the Standard Tarot schema, but then go in and Match the VIII and XI card manually. Is that what you want us to do? OR do you want us to Import the "Tarot" schema and LEAVE the cards VIII and XI with Card "Names" that don't match the cards (for the benefit of the "VII 2 XI Switcheroo Tool" and "Comparisons")???

Regards Greg

P.S. - I was just thinking with regard to how to spread such a "Policy". Perhaps a pop up explanatory note on the "Card Notes Dialogue", over a button labelled "How to Name those Cards"??
Perhaps part of that Pop Up Note might direct the user to one of the New Video Tutorials? (that are so good!)

[Greg the Yeti]

I've been doing some work on my Decks, sometimes manually logging in the "Card Names" and sometimes using the much quicker "Import" method. I'm coming up with lots of ideas. Two for today, that I'll put as seperate posts.
- - -
With regard to my earlier suggestion about having a tool to automatically select the Card Name. (Of course this would only apply to "Non-Standard" or Oracles Decks. Standard Tarots can use the existing "Import" function, which works very well.)

I've now done this manually with 2 Decks and it ain't THAT hard. Just tedious work really.

I was thinking further about my suggestion and think it might be hard to implement??

Unless using a slightly reduced version:-

IF people have been "Good Orphalese Bunnies" and have put the Card Name on it's own on the Top Line of the Card Notes, then that should prove relatively easy? To get the program to automatically select and copy the whole of the First Line of the Card Notes. Perhaps a Tick Box - "All of the Card Names take up the whole of the First Line of the Notes - AUTOMATIC FILL IN"

For those whove been VERY NAUGHTY Orphalese Bunnies and have cluttered the first line with other things as well:-
"Tough Luck - You're gonna have to do it by hand"

Is that too hard on them?

Regards Greg

[Programmer]

Thanks for sending me that spreadsheet, it is interesting to see the various different common deck ordering conventions compared side by side. I am tending to think that maybe the way forward is to have all schema loaded from XML files which the program would help you create or download, and plus it would come supplied with the most common ones.

As far as compare cards is concerned, I don't think we are ever going to find a way of making it compare say the six of coins for all the decks selected when, as you say, the suits could be in different orders and the cards could have quite different names (even just within English). You could make sure all your decks were in the same order but that sounds like really hard work. One new feature that we have been considering for the next big version is a "Create Decks Wizard". One thing this could include would be an easy way to arrange the images in the deck folder into the order you want by dragging rather than having to edit the names. Then you would press a button and the program would number them automatically. That could help but I still wouldn't want to do it with a big collection.

Regarding the tool to move the names to the names field, lets see how many decks are still hanging around with names in the top line of notes when it comes time to start on the aforementioned new version and how many people think it is an important issue. As you know, everything is a trade off!

[Greg the Yeti]

Hi Richard,
Yes and yes and ... yes

As to my collection of many more "Different" than "Standard" Decks, yes I've tried to stick to two conflicting "Policies"
1) Try to stick with the "Standard" order, whenever possible.
2) Try to stick with the order in the Deck as supplied, or it's LWB.

Mostly No1 has won... except when that's just impossible!

But IF there were in the future a system, which allowed it I would probably abandon No1 and go entirely with No2?

My main point is that we should be thiking about that "Policy" now, because people will be like me, and putting those names in to use some of the new features - now and in the coming months. Some using "Import" and some manually from the Card Notes.

I also note that with the "Card Name" going into a separate file to the Notes, if it were necessary to re-jig the whole thing later, i can't imagine many people wanting to do it!! It's gonna get complicated.

So if there isn't a policy soon, then it will become impossible to instigate one later?

My Feeling:-
That in a very real way, the "Card Name" field duplicates the work of two other elements of a Deck.
a) The Numbering of the Image Files.
b) The Card Names which most Decks with Card Notes will have there.

And that Deck Comparisons have had some difficulty because people simply haven't all followed the same way of numbering their Decks.

MY SUGGESTION:-

Use the opportunity of the Duplicated information to gain some clarity. But I think you have to act now or very soon... with a Policy, and matching video Tutorials, and perhaps the tool that you suggest etc.

That all 78 Card Tarot Decks should be equipped with the "Equivalencies" to the "Standard" in the "Card Name" and that "Deck Specific" Card Names should be used and only used in the CardData.xml Notes.

(Otherwise I frankly can't see why the information is duplicated???)

Then all Decks compliant with that "Policy" would be easily Comparable using the "Card Name" field, and ignoring the Image Numbering, which might vary.

Otherwise you would have to stick with comparing cards with the Image file numbers - and needing to ask people to "Renumber your decks Please!" When perhaps they won't, or don't visit the Forum??

You could I suppose enforce compliance on the P2P, before allowing a Deck to be shared, or allowing it to stay there. That's the draconian version. Or there's Chaos and a wasted opportunity. I prefer a "Policy" soon to either of those...

Your idea of a sepcial tool to ease re-ordering of the Cards, which would then automatically be re-umbered. It's actually a very nice idea! It sounds a little complicated and is going to take you some time..
At the moment I use NameWiz to do all my numbering or re-numbering. (strongly recommended). But some kind of "Drag and Drop" editor would be very nice. However I suggest leaving that and trying to get some order amongst the "Naughty Orphalese Bunnies" (like me) with their non-standard Decks! A clearly expressed "policy" now would prevent heartache later?

Yes I will have to re-do just a few, that I did the other day. But with the new Import tool that would be quite easy and pretty quick. Only a modest amount of manual editing required.

Hope those thoughts are helpful
Regards Greg

[MysticEast]

To help with providing standard "Schema" that people can just import into their Decks I have just shared a couple of "I Ching (SYO)" Decks with full Card Names and a "Ling Qi Jing (Kashiwa)" also with full Card Names.

Both of these DIFFER from the traditional order and numbering of the Published versions of the Oracles.

I Ching (SYO) - (Shao Yung Octal/Order)
I stongly suggest that if you use this Card Schema that it is very clearly labelled as "I Ching(SYO)", to distinguish it from the traditional published order.
The published order requires a "LookUp Chart". The (SYO) versions I have shared here need no chart, since the Hexagram itself IS the number (in Octal).
I have included the Octal Number in Arabic Script, since the Chinese Names sometimes have the same pronunciation/transliteration in English!!
It is not my intention to porvide a "schema" for the traditional order, since I think it was Confucian nonsense!

Ling Qi Jing (Kashiwa)
Ivan Kashiwa (not her real name) did a similar re-ordering with her publication of the Ling Qi Jing. The count of the various Spirit Tokens IS the number (this time in "Quintal" Maths). It's very intuitive.
I stongly suggest that if you use this "schema" that it is very clearly labelled as "Ling Qi Jing (Kashiwa Order)" or perhaps "Ling Qi Jing (Quintal)", to avoid incorrect application to any share of a traditional version!
Just as with the I Ching (SYO) above, I have included the "Quintal" Number in Arabic Script, for clarity.
Likewise, it is not my intention to provide a "schema" for the traditional order, since it is so absolutely stupid!

Regards
MysticEast

[MysticEast]

Hi,
overnight I've had another thought about a possible solution.

Given that in Orphalese it is possible to select the Font that is used for display - and given that I have Font creation/editing software - I could input the required symbols in vacant spaces in a standard Font (or substituting some international characters?).

That should work, although it would require the user to download and install the appropriate font and select it for display in Orphalese.
If that were made possible, it would be nice if the specified font were only used for that Deck, otherwise the user might not want/like that particular font choice for all the time?
With xml it might be possible to select the font for specific characters only, leaving the users selected font, or the Default font for everything else.

That makes me think again about what files can be included within a Deck at the moment.

I think that:-
Sub folders and
zips are not allowed.
xml files, other than those standard ones actually used by the Deck are not allowed.
txt files, I think are not allowed?
Image files are only allowed as the numbered "Cards" and the back unless "Include Background image" is selected when sharing, in which case (as far as I'm aware) ALL other image files are allowed.

I know that the inclusion of certain files introduces a security risk.
zips could contain whatever!
Equally any executable file could contain viruses or malware!
xml files are executable, so need to be kept on a tight rein!

But is there not some way around this so that other useful files could be included?
Examples:-
A Font, as here, for special symbols used by the Deck.
xml files for Spreads specific to the Deck.
xml files for Deck Sub Sets, specific to the Deck.
xml files for Deck Collections, where several Decks will always be used together.
the xml file for "Personal" Card Notes - as alternatives to standard Card notes.

I think these would all be useful, moreover I reckon you must be doing some kind of virus check when a Deck is uploaded?? This is at least implied...

regards MysticEast