Hey - wouldn't you know "someone" has been pusing the boundaries with regard to "Deck Size"!
A few undesireable effects...
1) Shuffle Speed (and speed generally in dealing with the Deck)
Also I noted recently that even with ultra small file size, the shuffle speed reaches a minimum which you simply cannot get past!
2) The "waiting symbol" appears "waiting" "waiting" "waiting", but usually does eventually disappear...
3) PROGRAM CRASH!
Clearly the Decks of wantonly huge size, designed by that wanton profiligate "MysticEast", are threatening to destroy the known universe?
I suspect further inadequacies with regard to Microsoft's Dot.NET!!!!!
No point in complaining - they aren't listening!
I humbly suggest that 748 cards is for the time being at least, PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES TOO FAR?
Regards
Greg the Yeti
Vector Graphics
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Re: Deck size
Phew...748 cards may be pushing it a bit especially if a good number of them are out of the deck. It sounds like your computer is running out of memory and it is the graphics rendering which is the most greedy operation in that respect. On a slightly different subject which I remember you asking about on another thread, I did a bit of looking around and apparently there are libraries for rendering vector graphics in .NET, so I will certainly have a go at getting that into the next version of the program (which will probably be sometime in August).
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Deck size
Ta very muchly - Oh programmer God!
But seriously, that sounds very interesting indeed!
With regard to my previous recommendation about EPS vector files. I was thinking that it isn't the best format. But to get the BEST, one would have to choose between the obvious market leader with Adobe Illustrator (I think AI files if I remember right?) and the equally Bank Busting CorelDRAW.
I know a good few years back I did a trial of Adobe Illutrator (as a long time and quite experienced CorelDRAW user) but decided that despite what some said about it being supposedly easy to use, that serious intelligent people recognize that the learning curve with Adobe Illustrator is MUCH steeper!
I HATED it with a vengeance. Windows proliferated absolutely EVERYWHERE and if you didn't already know the keyboard shorcuts you couldn't DO anything!
I truned back to good ol' faithful, which I LURV! Corel's vector format files are CDR (but it has filters for EPS, AI "et al").
If you have access to libraries for ALL those formats (AI, CDR and EPS), that would be ACE - leading to your worship for generations by all Yeti of the Hymalia and Big Foot of the Plains!
Regards Greg the Yeti
----
Having said all the above, I was also thinking about what you said about using "Paint Shop Pro".
You know if you use that then you are probably using some Vector Graphic tools, without knowing it.
I seem to remember from having a much earlier version of it that it had MANY "Quick Shapes".Now THOSE are Vector Generated! The thing is with the "Paint" type program, it probably doesn't allow you to edit them much? And perhaps not at all once it's "Merged with the Background"? And almost certainly doesn't allow you to export them into a vector format file.
For me those are the Killer advantages of the Vector Graphic Programs. Editability, both when you create it, when you re-open the file and SO MUCH control over things, like PLACEMENT of objects, that it's just a delight! Then there's all the fancy things it can do.... Just writing this has got me drooling! (sorry I'll calm down now....)
But seriously, that sounds very interesting indeed!
With regard to my previous recommendation about EPS vector files. I was thinking that it isn't the best format. But to get the BEST, one would have to choose between the obvious market leader with Adobe Illustrator (I think AI files if I remember right?) and the equally Bank Busting CorelDRAW.
I know a good few years back I did a trial of Adobe Illutrator (as a long time and quite experienced CorelDRAW user) but decided that despite what some said about it being supposedly easy to use, that serious intelligent people recognize that the learning curve with Adobe Illustrator is MUCH steeper!
I HATED it with a vengeance. Windows proliferated absolutely EVERYWHERE and if you didn't already know the keyboard shorcuts you couldn't DO anything!
I truned back to good ol' faithful, which I LURV! Corel's vector format files are CDR (but it has filters for EPS, AI "et al").
If you have access to libraries for ALL those formats (AI, CDR and EPS), that would be ACE - leading to your worship for generations by all Yeti of the Hymalia and Big Foot of the Plains!
Regards Greg the Yeti
----
Having said all the above, I was also thinking about what you said about using "Paint Shop Pro".
You know if you use that then you are probably using some Vector Graphic tools, without knowing it.
I seem to remember from having a much earlier version of it that it had MANY "Quick Shapes".Now THOSE are Vector Generated! The thing is with the "Paint" type program, it probably doesn't allow you to edit them much? And perhaps not at all once it's "Merged with the Background"? And almost certainly doesn't allow you to export them into a vector format file.
For me those are the Killer advantages of the Vector Graphic Programs. Editability, both when you create it, when you re-open the file and SO MUCH control over things, like PLACEMENT of objects, that it's just a delight! Then there's all the fancy things it can do.... Just writing this has got me drooling! (sorry I'll calm down now....)
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Deck size
I neglected to say WHY I thought that EPS were not the BEST Vector file format.
This is mostly from memory - quite a long time since I've used EPS files much. (Before I got a decent Font Creation / Editing Program, I learnt how to create fonts using CorelDRAW and EPS files. Complicated and NOT the best way of doing it, but it worked.)
If my memory is correct then EPS files are PURE Vector files. There is no possibility for example of importing a jpg as a background (I Think?)
With CorelDRAW (CDR format) you can easily import any kind of bitmap file. You can even do some very basic bitmap image manipulation within CorelDRAW, although to edit bitmaps much you need to do it in a proper Bitmap "Paint" type tool.
The bitmap file is contained within the CorelDRAW file but there is no "Merging with the Background"!! The bitmap is an "object" just like all the other objects in your drawing. All remain fully editable.
I imagine that Adobe Illustrator is equally capable?...
That's a good reason why I recommend CDR format or AI format, if you can get them!
For any work on decks for Orphalese, including bitmaps as part of the final product is going to be important!
Regards
Greg the Yeti
This is mostly from memory - quite a long time since I've used EPS files much. (Before I got a decent Font Creation / Editing Program, I learnt how to create fonts using CorelDRAW and EPS files. Complicated and NOT the best way of doing it, but it worked.)
If my memory is correct then EPS files are PURE Vector files. There is no possibility for example of importing a jpg as a background (I Think?)
With CorelDRAW (CDR format) you can easily import any kind of bitmap file. You can even do some very basic bitmap image manipulation within CorelDRAW, although to edit bitmaps much you need to do it in a proper Bitmap "Paint" type tool.
The bitmap file is contained within the CorelDRAW file but there is no "Merging with the Background"!! The bitmap is an "object" just like all the other objects in your drawing. All remain fully editable.
I imagine that Adobe Illustrator is equally capable?...
That's a good reason why I recommend CDR format or AI format, if you can get them!
For any work on decks for Orphalese, including bitmaps as part of the final product is going to be important!
Regards
Greg the Yeti
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Re: Deck size
Hi Greg, I am starting to have a bit of time to look at these things. Before I start spending much time on the vector graphics thing, I have realized that the support I can build into the program will be for .SVG format only. So the question is, with the graphics programs you have, can you convert to this format? It is a fairly universal, XML based, open source format so hopefully you can. If you let me know over the next few weeks I will try and build something in for that!
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Deck size
Hi, sorry I've only just noticed this, being busy with other things.
Yes the program I use, CorelDRAW can export to SVG and also to SVGZ (a compressed form of SVG).
And if Corel can then I assume that Adobe Illustrator will be able to as well?
I've never yet exported to those formats, so we shall have to see how it turns out, but thanks for the interest and the work you're doing.
Regards
Greg the Yeti
Yes the program I use, CorelDRAW can export to SVG and also to SVGZ (a compressed form of SVG).
And if Corel can then I assume that Adobe Illustrator will be able to as well?
I've never yet exported to those formats, so we shall have to see how it turns out, but thanks for the interest and the work you're doing.
Regards
Greg the Yeti
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Deck size
An interesting use for the Vector Graphic Format would be any of the "Woodblock Style" older "Traditional" Decks - like the Marseille or even the Rider Waite. Anywhere where the artwork is bold Black "Line Art" (coloured in as an optional extra).
For any of these, the result should be absolutely perfect display, at any size or resolution. (Well as perfect as the work of it's editor!)
It should also result in much smaller file size (unless "pixel images" were included as well).
We shall also have to wait and see what effect this has on rendering/display SPEED and shuffling speed...
I don't know the answer to that one! Hopefully it will be in the right direction!
The conversion WILL be a lot of work!
Original Publishers may have Vector files, if that is what they used? But they're not gonna help us, now are they...
Regards Greg the Yeti
For any of these, the result should be absolutely perfect display, at any size or resolution. (Well as perfect as the work of it's editor!)
It should also result in much smaller file size (unless "pixel images" were included as well).
We shall also have to wait and see what effect this has on rendering/display SPEED and shuffling speed...
I don't know the answer to that one! Hopefully it will be in the right direction!
The conversion WILL be a lot of work!
Original Publishers may have Vector files, if that is what they used? But they're not gonna help us, now are they...
Regards Greg the Yeti
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Re: Vector Graphics
First of all, I changed the name of this topic to "Vector Graphics" because the subject had really moved on from the original post.
I just uploaded a version that supports those SVG files I mentioned in a previous post. I only managed to get my hands on one image for testing purposes, so I created a test deck with three identical cards. You can get the test deck from the Deck Exchange, it is called "Awesome Tiger". You will need to download the new version of the program first though as the old version will give lots of errors and not display the cards at all.
I think the result is pretty good, the images don't lose any clarity no matter how much you resize them. The only problem I can see is that they take a bit longer to process so the program can start to run a bit slow. Interesting as a proof of concept though.
I just uploaded a version that supports those SVG files I mentioned in a previous post. I only managed to get my hands on one image for testing purposes, so I created a test deck with three identical cards. You can get the test deck from the Deck Exchange, it is called "Awesome Tiger". You will need to download the new version of the program first though as the old version will give lots of errors and not display the cards at all.
I think the result is pretty good, the images don't lose any clarity no matter how much you resize them. The only problem I can see is that they take a bit longer to process so the program can start to run a bit slow. Interesting as a proof of concept though.
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Vector Graphics
Hi,
thanks. I will download and test that out ASAP.
I suppose that as the guilty party in having requested this, I'm gonna have to do some work on a Vector Deck. That might take some time. But now it's possible, it's definitely worth trying.
It's a bit dissappointing that it impacts negatively on speed!
Since Vector Graphics are effectively "re-created on the fly" each time displayed, the time factor may very well be highly dependent on Processing Power. So even if it is currently problematic, that might very quickly dissappear with continuing improvements in people's machines? I certainly hope so!
Regards Greg the Yeti
thanks. I will download and test that out ASAP.
I suppose that as the guilty party in having requested this, I'm gonna have to do some work on a Vector Deck. That might take some time. But now it's possible, it's definitely worth trying.
It's a bit dissappointing that it impacts negatively on speed!
Since Vector Graphics are effectively "re-created on the fly" each time displayed, the time factor may very well be highly dependent on Processing Power. So even if it is currently problematic, that might very quickly dissappear with continuing improvements in people's machines? I certainly hope so!
Regards Greg the Yeti
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Greg the Yeti
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- Joined: Tue 01 May, 2007 3:11 pm
Re: Vector Graphics
Hi Richard,
and anyone else interested in Vector Graphics.
I've updated Orphalese, downloaded the "Amazing Tiger", tried it out and even uploaded a larger 78 card version as a try out. The Tiger works!
However some bad news...
Before trying out, and putting a lot of work into a Tarot Deck, I started to try out something a lot simpler.
ALL my attempts displayed correctly in Internet Explorer, the program that is set up as the only capable program within Windows. However without exception, so far ALL my attempts have failed to display even partly correctly within Orphalese.
Now this isn't you're fault - and I'm not blaming you! However DotNET which Orphalese is using to display the svg grapics is clearly not as capable as Internet Explorer when it comes to displaying SVG graphics.
Examples:
1) Colour - though IE got this right, there was no colour in the Cards in Orphalese (dotNET). I've looked everywhere and can't even begin to work out why this is.
2) A simple Ring was displayed with the Outline in the correct place, but the inner curve displaced to the edge of the Card. It seems it can't cope with a hollow shape?
3) I converted that Ring to two circles one on top of the other, giving the same effect in CorelDRAW and Internet Explorer, but dotNET can't get that right either. It blotted out everything. I think this one is to do with the "Direction" of the vectors for the two shapes. The inner shape has to be the opposite direction to "Cut Out" rather than "Blot Out"! So yes I think I can resolve this one with a bit more time...
4) With Orphalese's Transparent Function on, the edges of everything was ringed with Pixel "Anti-Aliasing" white-edge-crud. A harsh irony, given that "Vector Graphics" doesn't have those Pixels and neither did Internet Explorer's rendition either!
5) Because neither Windows Explorer nor my prefered "PowerDesk" can give a preview of the images, it becomes very difficult, and potentially very error prone to work with the files to create a Deck out of them. It becomes a pure "Mind-Game" with no visual help at all. Not a pleasant experience.
I'm gonna continue trying to work out IF there is a solution to these problems. It must be possible - since the Clip Art people produce so much, that works (despite being "Bloated"). I'm no Vector Novice - but I'm finding it hard, so other people will find it - well impossible?!
I don't think the problem is "Just Old Me", nor "CorelDRAW", since internet Explorer displayed everything correctly. I think the problem is that Microsoft with it's DotNET hasn't bothered to get it right. They've bothered with IE, because Advertisers money is on the line, but regular users don't matter (I never said that did I?)
I think it's a "Vicious Spiral" problem.
1) Microsoft haven't bothrered to get it right, so it's very difficult.
2) Because it's very difficult VERY few people can or will use it.
3) Even less reason for Miscrosoft to get it right.
I'm certainly not even going to try a mock up of good ol "Marseille" unless I can resolve these issues, but I frankly think that we've got to wait on Microsoft to get it right.
Do developers have any easier access to Microsoft's ear? For regular users like me, they want to charge you for the priviledge of making a comment to improve Windows!
Sorry for the Bad News! You've done this upgrade to SVG, sooner than I had expected. I'm sorry for you're wasted time, that could have been spent on something more useful (like that "Spacebar Loaded Spread") which I think a lot of Orphalese users would benefit from. Unfortunately this isn't gonna happen - yet...
Regards
Greg the Yeti
and anyone else interested in Vector Graphics.
I've updated Orphalese, downloaded the "Amazing Tiger", tried it out and even uploaded a larger 78 card version as a try out. The Tiger works!
However some bad news...
Before trying out, and putting a lot of work into a Tarot Deck, I started to try out something a lot simpler.
ALL my attempts displayed correctly in Internet Explorer, the program that is set up as the only capable program within Windows. However without exception, so far ALL my attempts have failed to display even partly correctly within Orphalese.
Now this isn't you're fault - and I'm not blaming you! However DotNET which Orphalese is using to display the svg grapics is clearly not as capable as Internet Explorer when it comes to displaying SVG graphics.
Examples:
1) Colour - though IE got this right, there was no colour in the Cards in Orphalese (dotNET). I've looked everywhere and can't even begin to work out why this is.
2) A simple Ring was displayed with the Outline in the correct place, but the inner curve displaced to the edge of the Card. It seems it can't cope with a hollow shape?
3) I converted that Ring to two circles one on top of the other, giving the same effect in CorelDRAW and Internet Explorer, but dotNET can't get that right either. It blotted out everything. I think this one is to do with the "Direction" of the vectors for the two shapes. The inner shape has to be the opposite direction to "Cut Out" rather than "Blot Out"! So yes I think I can resolve this one with a bit more time...
4) With Orphalese's Transparent Function on, the edges of everything was ringed with Pixel "Anti-Aliasing" white-edge-crud. A harsh irony, given that "Vector Graphics" doesn't have those Pixels and neither did Internet Explorer's rendition either!
5) Because neither Windows Explorer nor my prefered "PowerDesk" can give a preview of the images, it becomes very difficult, and potentially very error prone to work with the files to create a Deck out of them. It becomes a pure "Mind-Game" with no visual help at all. Not a pleasant experience.
I'm gonna continue trying to work out IF there is a solution to these problems. It must be possible - since the Clip Art people produce so much, that works (despite being "Bloated"). I'm no Vector Novice - but I'm finding it hard, so other people will find it - well impossible?!
I don't think the problem is "Just Old Me", nor "CorelDRAW", since internet Explorer displayed everything correctly. I think the problem is that Microsoft with it's DotNET hasn't bothered to get it right. They've bothered with IE, because Advertisers money is on the line, but regular users don't matter (I never said that did I?)
I think it's a "Vicious Spiral" problem.
1) Microsoft haven't bothrered to get it right, so it's very difficult.
2) Because it's very difficult VERY few people can or will use it.
3) Even less reason for Miscrosoft to get it right.
I'm certainly not even going to try a mock up of good ol "Marseille" unless I can resolve these issues, but I frankly think that we've got to wait on Microsoft to get it right.
Do developers have any easier access to Microsoft's ear? For regular users like me, they want to charge you for the priviledge of making a comment to improve Windows!
Sorry for the Bad News! You've done this upgrade to SVG, sooner than I had expected. I'm sorry for you're wasted time, that could have been spent on something more useful (like that "Spacebar Loaded Spread") which I think a lot of Orphalese users would benefit from. Unfortunately this isn't gonna happen - yet...
Regards
Greg the Yeti