US Games and Tarot Card Images

[Val]

I came across this article written by Bonnie Cehovet regarding US Games policy on the use of copyrighted images, their contract with the Visionary Network (tarot.com), and a copy of a disclosure sent by US Games to a major Tarot e-list. The article was written in 2001, so I'm not sure if the information is still valid, but thought I'd pass it along in case something in the article could be useful for the Orphalese Deck Exchange.

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/spiritualwa ... x.109.html

~Val

[Val]

DOH! Just thought to check the Publishers list and I see US Games has a Reply Negative.

Ummm......nevermind!

~Val

[Merlin]

Hi All!

I find it funny that the Monlithic companies can never seem to adjust/adapt to change, and then they expect us to follow like cattle.........

They seem to forget that we have the money that keeps them in business, and ticking us off, only means a loss of their bottom line (P.R.O.F.I.T.)............

(And yes, I know that I'm sitting on the fence as a publisher! I also believe that if you keep your customers happy, they'll keep you happy!)

Just My Two Cents/Pence,

Take Care,

Marvin

[purple_scorp]

Hi Val,

......you said nevermind......but on the contrary, I think we should all still mind.

What an interesting article in that link you gave. It talked about images with the word Copyright across them. Maybe this is an angle we should pursue with some publishers. I mean, what is it that they fear? I think they believe we are going to reproduce the deck for oursElves instead of buying it. They don't see how by allowing us to download the deck and trial it, would actually result in deck sales not only for us, but for all of the people we recommend it to too.

But if the graphic is in a lower-quality and has the word Copyright across them, then it's not likely we will want to reproduce it.

Hmm, Richard, have you considered this option when approaching the publisher?

The irony of this whole scenario is that many full decks (and often card notes) are published on websites anyhow. So, there are other places you can get the images. Sure it's not as quick and nice as getting the images from here. But it's still doable.

regards
purple_scorp

[sKenn]

The last 6 decks i have acquired all come from other publisher/distributors than US Games. Of the 19 i own in total only slightly less than half of them came from US Games. I don't necessarily see US Games System as a *leader* anymore. I think it would revolutionize PC and online Tarot if publishers offered a free online version of their decks when they purchased the hard copy version of the decks. Some companies that publish and distribute calendars do this. Alternatively they could sell the online version of the deck for a reduced rate like i-tunes and other online music distributors do for music albums. However, if they sold them in a format such as .jpg, .bmp, .gif, etc. then people could just replicate them and possibly pirate them. Maybe they could take a nod from the e-book business and create a file that would contain the whole deck but in a format that would only work with an associated program. Or they could make each deck a freestanding program.

Meanwhile, there's always scanners and the T.A.Z.s

sKenn

[purple_scorp]

Hey sKenn,

Good points. Tarot of Dreams is a perfect example of how you can combine a wonderful deck with a wonderful piece of software. But then, not every creator has the vision and foresight of Ciro.

I hope that other deck creators follow Ciro's lead.

Regards
purple_scorp

[swampwizard]

I know this is an old topic, but it's something I was searching about. I just downlaoded this program tonight. All I can say is WOW! As soon as I get the money I will be purchasing a copy of it. In a way the interface is simple, however, the features make it VERY flexible for people that like lots of customizations.

I just don't understand these publishing companies. I guess they are more in to money than in to the whole new age scenery. So far i have found two of the two major companies a bit stand offish. U.S. Games has a PDF file dedicated to explaining all about that "out of copyright" issue.

I have the Necronomicon deck and I emailed Llewellyen. I received the following response:

"Hello,

Llewellyn does not currently allow the use of any of our Tarot decks in software of any type.

Karen K. Karsten

Editorial Production Coordinator
Permissions/Infringements Administrator
Llewellyn Worldwide LTD
651/312-8571
1-800-THE-MOON, ext. 8571
fax: 651/291-1908"

Seems to be like not a "No", but a straight up, H-E-(double hockey sticks) NO! There wasn't even any offer on a licensing fee or anything. It seems that Llewellyn figures they have all this new age publishing business so they have the right to keep all the money and products to theirself.

In regards to the decks, I wonder if you could use the loophole like on DVDs or CDs. Some say that you can make one copy of your CD or DVD, as a backup. Not sure, never looked it up. If that is true, I wonder if that applies to print. That is, make a digital backup of your tarot deck in case flood, fire, hail, sleet, snow, Armageddon, and so forth.

[Programmer]

Hi Swamp,

Glad you are enjoying the program!

Seeing this old thread reactivated reminds me of the hassles we had when I was trying to take all the responsibility for what appeared on the exchange and what didn't. The way it worked is that people would upload decks and they would go into a waiting list. Then as we (me and some volunteer administrators) got around to looking at each deck we had to decide who published it and what their position was. Sometimes decks had been published by more than one company in the course of time, so then you had to work out which edition it was, but most of the time there wasn't even that much to go on. The queueing time got to be several weeks between someone uploading a deck and it appearing (or not) on the website.

The peer-to-peer approach is great because it has freed up my spare time and let me go back to working on the program. It also takes into account that the program is used by people all over the world and laws and customs vary a lot from one place to another.

Probably the USA is the place with the most draconian laws in this respect. At one point I was quiet worried about individual users landing up in trouble, which in the States has happened with people who download music from file sharing sites. Recent changes to the program mean that all file exchages now go through a proxy server, which ensures complete anonymity for the sharer (before it would have been technically possible, with a bit of work, to sniff out the other party's IP address). Also I have moved the server from Florida to a location in Europe. Data protection laws in Europe prevent ISP's from divulging user IP addresses, except in extreme cases involving anti-terrorism etc.

I think as far as the Llewellyn decks go, and in the light of that response, you would be breaking copyright law if you used any of them with the program, even if you owned the original deck.That said, I am not a lawyer ;-)

Richard

[swampwizard]

I agree that Llewellyn might consider me using a virtual deck, even if for my own purposes, illegal. I can understand that people want to get paid for their creations, but it sure seems like the U.S. is so commercialized that at timesI want to scream.

My issue is that a company is willing to punish me for something they don't provide. U.S. Games does provide a digital version of the Rider-Waite deck, however, a very limited offering considering you have to pay to use it (i.e. through a reading at Tarot.com). In regards to Llewellyn, they have no virtual version of the Necronomicon deck, at least not that I know of.

One argument corporations like to use is that it takes away from sales. From what I've read on here, there have been quite a few instances where people found the virtual deck, like it, and ended up buying the physical deck.

Personally, I think that if you have purchased the physical deck you should have the right to create your own virtual version. After all, it's not as if you are stealing work they have already done. You have to scan each card yourself, you have to create the XML files for the pack, etc. You are actually having to do work.

[Seamonster]

I, personally, have spent quite a few hard-earned dollars on "paper" decks because I have used them here. I love the versatility and convenience of virtual decks, but there's really nothing like a "real" deck in hand. Many of the decks I have purchased, I would never have known about had it not been for this program. I think publishers need to rethink their "copyright" policies on virtual decks for their own profit.