Hi Richard,
our posts crossed!
Your reply
"I think the warning is fine as most people probably will want to gather cards before dealing a spread. If it got really annoying I could maybe add an option to never prompt."
I can tell you that it is already really annoying, having used it a few times and done those tests on how the system is working. YES this will be really annoying! So please do give us that option.
Regards Greg
Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
OK, I get your point about adding the leave option for unused decks. To clarify those options though, a "used" deck means any deck used in the spread, so if the spread had three decks they would all be "used" decks. A spare deck is one that is not used at all in the spread. Maybe they should both default to park.
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Hey Richard,
NO!
You're still "thinking in 2D", when the "Multiple Deck" - "Double Spread" example I'm talking about is in "3D"...
With the Motherpeace situation, which I'm trying to rescue, there will always be at least two Decks open, and sometimes three depending on the exact draw of one of those two spreads.
Two Decks and Two separate Spreads and NO un-used or "Spare" Decks anywhere - because it would just clutter up an already crammed Desktop!
The One Deck is "Used" but only in the First Spread. It is essential that it is left with the Spread still there to see.
The Second Deck is "un-used" (and I suppose "Spare") but only for the first Spread. When it comes to the Second Spread, it is now the "Used" Deck. You end with two separate sets of Spread Cards. One set directly on top of the first.
I hope that clarifies what IS a confusing situation.
Orphalese 9 did get it right, so I hope we can achieve that in Orphalese 10 too!
Regards Greg
To help imagine the complex situation I can only think that if you can load up Orphalese 9 (last working version) and DO the Motherpeace Dual Deck - Dual Spread example for real there, where it works (and works quite intuitively at that?)
Edit to that last comment:- Well actually it does NOW seem to work in Orphalese 10 (thanks to your hard work) but for the detail of thinking about this "Used" or "Spare" - "Parked" or "Left" situation. It might help to do it in Orphalese 9 where the situation is a little simpler???
NO!
You're still "thinking in 2D", when the "Multiple Deck" - "Double Spread" example I'm talking about is in "3D"...
With the Motherpeace situation, which I'm trying to rescue, there will always be at least two Decks open, and sometimes three depending on the exact draw of one of those two spreads.
Two Decks and Two separate Spreads and NO un-used or "Spare" Decks anywhere - because it would just clutter up an already crammed Desktop!
The One Deck is "Used" but only in the First Spread. It is essential that it is left with the Spread still there to see.
The Second Deck is "un-used" (and I suppose "Spare") but only for the first Spread. When it comes to the Second Spread, it is now the "Used" Deck. You end with two separate sets of Spread Cards. One set directly on top of the first.
I hope that clarifies what IS a confusing situation.
Orphalese 9 did get it right, so I hope we can achieve that in Orphalese 10 too!
Regards Greg
To help imagine the complex situation I can only think that if you can load up Orphalese 9 (last working version) and DO the Motherpeace Dual Deck - Dual Spread example for real there, where it works (and works quite intuitively at that?)
Edit to that last comment:- Well actually it does NOW seem to work in Orphalese 10 (thanks to your hard work) but for the detail of thinking about this "Used" or "Spare" - "Parked" or "Left" situation. It might help to do it in Orphalese 9 where the situation is a little simpler???
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Hi Greg,
I can't say I entirely get where you are coming from especially as you are frequently mentioning a preference to use fewer mouse clicks. I can see that when you have the Mother Peace spread deployed you may be using three decks, and obviously they are all used by that spread, but suppose you then wanted to follow that by dealing out a new spread just using one deck? In terms of the new spread all three of them would very probably be spare. So the close option gives you the chance to tidy away everything the program is not about to re-utilize with a single click. I guess it doesn't fit with your way of working but that is the whole point of having configurable options.
So, in the new version I just uploaded (10.0.2.2) you have the options to Leave, Park or Close unused decks. And you also have the option to never prompt to collect cards when dealing a spread.
That is very definitely the last modification I am going to make to the program in this programming cycle, although I am still very much receptive to any bug reports you may want to put in. It is always open season on bugs!
Cheers
I can't say I entirely get where you are coming from especially as you are frequently mentioning a preference to use fewer mouse clicks. I can see that when you have the Mother Peace spread deployed you may be using three decks, and obviously they are all used by that spread, but suppose you then wanted to follow that by dealing out a new spread just using one deck? In terms of the new spread all three of them would very probably be spare. So the close option gives you the chance to tidy away everything the program is not about to re-utilize with a single click. I guess it doesn't fit with your way of working but that is the whole point of having configurable options.
So, in the new version I just uploaded (10.0.2.2) you have the options to Leave, Park or Close unused decks. And you also have the option to never prompt to collect cards when dealing a spread.
That is very definitely the last modification I am going to make to the program in this programming cycle, although I am still very much receptive to any bug reports you may want to put in. It is always open season on bugs!
Cheers
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Hi Richard,
and a big thanks for those two changes you mention. I'll get the new version installed as soon as... and hopefully I can shut up (and not need to add any "bug reports")!
I'm sorry I wasn't meaning to be difficult or arrogant in my post above! I was just trying to underline that it's
"At Least two decks (but sometimes three)" AND
"Two Spreads (and sometimes a single card draw as well)"
rather than what you were saying:-
"when you have the Mother Peace spread deployed you may be using three decks, and obviously they are all used by that spread"
That implies only one "Motherpeace Spread", when in fact at least two are required.
That's what I meant when I made the analogy of 2D and 3D.
You're right that there used to be only ONE "Motherpeace Spread" (only it was used TWICE, once for the Main Deck and once for the Moon Phase Deck)
That situation no longer worked and with the new setup, TWO seperate Spreads are now required, both specific to the Deck. I have created those two spreads, but have not up-loaded them yet as I was waiting to see if any further change would be required to "get it perfect"! - as a retire-ee my "development time" is unlimited! (all the Gods willing?)
I can also report that I've heard that work on a new, much better, even more intuitive "Moon Phase Deck" is well under way and nearing a fresh up-load!
Soon "Motherpeace" will have a second phase as a "Technological Leader in the Field"?
Similar techniques could be put to good use with some other oracles, already out there. It's been worth it!
Once again - THANKS VERY MUCHLY for all your hard work!
Regards Greg
and a big thanks for those two changes you mention. I'll get the new version installed as soon as... and hopefully I can shut up (and not need to add any "bug reports")!
I'm sorry I wasn't meaning to be difficult or arrogant in my post above! I was just trying to underline that it's
"At Least two decks (but sometimes three)" AND
"Two Spreads (and sometimes a single card draw as well)"
rather than what you were saying:-
"when you have the Mother Peace spread deployed you may be using three decks, and obviously they are all used by that spread"
That implies only one "Motherpeace Spread", when in fact at least two are required.
That's what I meant when I made the analogy of 2D and 3D.
You're right that there used to be only ONE "Motherpeace Spread" (only it was used TWICE, once for the Main Deck and once for the Moon Phase Deck)
That situation no longer worked and with the new setup, TWO seperate Spreads are now required, both specific to the Deck. I have created those two spreads, but have not up-loaded them yet as I was waiting to see if any further change would be required to "get it perfect"! - as a retire-ee my "development time" is unlimited! (all the Gods willing?)
I can also report that I've heard that work on a new, much better, even more intuitive "Moon Phase Deck" is well under way and nearing a fresh up-load!
Soon "Motherpeace" will have a second phase as a "Technological Leader in the Field"?
Similar techniques could be put to good use with some other oracles, already out there. It's been worth it!
Once again - THANKS VERY MUCHLY for all your hard work!
Regards Greg
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Oh:- and yes it is working now! Thanks, thanks, thanks!
We were just discussing "finishing touches" to make things perfect.
Just as this year the various changes you've made (which have mostly been fantastic!) had stopped it working - perhaps because you weren't clear about it's requirements?
So if I make sure you're clear about what's going on then it will be less likely I'll need to post bug reports in next year's "Developoment Phase".
Thanks again!
We were just discussing "finishing touches" to make things perfect.
Just as this year the various changes you've made (which have mostly been fantastic!) had stopped it working - perhaps because you weren't clear about it's requirements?
So if I make sure you're clear about what's going on then it will be less likely I'll need to post bug reports in next year's "Developoment Phase".
Thanks again!
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Oh No!
Just "upgraded" to the latest version but it's a couple of steps forwards and at least half a dozen backwards.
I'm not quite sure what other changes there were, but the ones I'd requested and you'd worked on were
a) The option to "Leave" the secondary Deck when Spreading the Primary Deck.
b) The option to not be prompted to gather the cards.
- - -
Where can I start?
Bad Boo's all round, except for only one thing.
Option (b) not to be prompted to gather the cards, works.
Everything else is bad and you've gone BACK on a number of the improvements you had made in the previous version! Very bad indeed!
"The Motherpeace trio" worked in the previous version and ONLY needed the convenience features that are a) and b) above. Now it does not work again - or perhaps I could FORCE it to work by multiplying the Specific Spreads and not using those upgrades that you just made. It is now such an ugly mess that I seriously doubt that ANYBODY will be doing it (including me) unless you can reverse what you've just done!
BAD BAD BOO's
What now happens
Using the "standard options" of "Park" and allowing "Prompts to Collect".
1) Open the Main Motherpeace Deck, as Primary, which most people are likely to do.
2) Open the Moon Phase Deck as Secondary.
3) Shuffle and Spread the Moon phase Deck first, using the unspecific "Motherpeace Layout - ANY" (which had worked before and in the last version). Now it doesn't work - it spreads the Main Motherpeace Deck, the Primary Deck instead!
4) SUCH a bad mistake that most people would not even bother continuing!
5) The shuffle and draw of the Main Deck seems to proceed OK. I get the prompt to Collect, but click on "No Thankyou".
But I'm no longer confident that the draw has been from the FULL Deck or just from those Card Positions not drawn in the first Spread. I've not yet got a "same card position" so my doubt seems well founded?
Using my prefered options of "Park" for the "Used" Deck, Leave for the "Spare" and "No Prompts to Collect", results in the same serious error of both Spreads drawing from the Main Deck - which kills the whole enterprise!
However now the Secondary Deck now doesn't even "Park" when it has been Spread. Now that's NOT what I was asking for!
I havn't tried each and every combination of those two options, but with the "Standard" choices AND my "prefered" options BOTH producing the DEATH of the "Motherpeace Multi-Deck Multi-Spread" experience, you can just imagine the list of expletives that are now gracing the airwaves!
Now none of these expletives were directed at you - I'm not like that!
Wot Wiv me being a Philospher and "former dabler" in programming can I offer some ideas to try to help please, (otherwise I'm gonna be a very unhappy bunny for the next year!)
- - -
I drew that divider line very meaningfully. There are some things which must be simply "Cut Out" and left behind, to get the progress required.
1)Sort the Motherpeace case and you will have sorted all the rest!
2) You will find that you need to stop thinking about "the case of the person just dabbling and using Multiple Decks for fun or for Deck Comparison". This is CRUCIAL and is a source of much of the rest...
Please take it from me.
If we can get back to how it was working and then "re-imagine" those two new options without that pre-conception, it will work not only for Motherpeace but for all the others AS WELL - I guarantee it! I'm not about having the program work "Just my Way". I've always been a "Choices Guy"!!
3) Multiple Decks shouldn't necessarily require being thought of as "Primary" and "Secondary", but that's the way you've done it, so I suggest we STICK with that and allow those words to give us the necessary precision of thought! This will be helpful as a "Datum"!
4) "Used" Deck and "Spare" Deck. I believe these are the concepts which are behind the debacle of the current version and almost fully responsible.
It looks to me like you're using the word "Used" in two different ways in your mind and in different places in the program.
In one place, you're remembering that the "Used" Deck is not identical with the "Primary" Deck, but at another place, you're subtly equating the two. That's how the evidence from the way Program now works points.
"Spare" Deck was never a good idea from any angle whatever. When using Multiple Decks, neither are "Spare"! They're both being used. OK at different times. This also allows an element of ambiguity to creep in!
5) It looks like you will continue making these mistakes as long as you continue using those concepts! I humbly suggest eradicating them both from your mind and from the program as soon as possible!
6) Much better concepts would be exising concepts within the program.
"Spread" and "Not Spread". (Well "Not Spread" is only implied...)
With the confusions you've been getting yourself into, and the mental knots which have been evident in the way you've described things, these older concepts will "Cut the Mustard".
They will give much greater clarity of thought and better communication between us - the two trying to sort this out.
7) Specifically for the current round of changes:-
a) "Deck being Spread" is either "Parked" or "Left"
b) "Deck Not being Spread" is either "Parked" or "Left" or "Closed"
c) and neither is "Used" at any time, because the word is clearly ambiguous in YOUR mind. And neither is "Spare", because they will both be used either in the first or the second draw.
However the return into "Old Errors" that I thought we'd ironed out indicates to me that to achieve progress it would be better to go back to 10.0.2.1 (a working configuration) and edit that, rather than trying with the frankly hopeless and confused 10.0.2.3. (Very Big Sorry! Humble, humble, groveling Yeti!)
Unless you can abandon the "old way of thinking" in the ambigous concepts "Used" and "Spare" I can't see us getting it right?
I know that this years "Development Phase" is over and therefore am not expecting you to do this soon.
I have therefore "Back-Graded" to version 10.0.2.1
where the "Motherpeace Trio" at least work, albeit with some inconveniences:-
and intend to stick with that until you have the time to "clear you mind".
Please, please, please, no offence intended.
You are and have been a wonderfully helpful "Programmer God". But even God's can't get it right evey time?
Regards
Greg the Apologetic Yeti
As a corrolary to that I'm thinking about "responsibility to other users" and am wondering whether to post a warning not to up-grade if you want to use the "Motherpeace Trio" of Decks.
Certainly to make or keep a backup of your existing configuration or "upgradeDOTexe" file, and then wait for news.
I don't want to embarras you and would word that as tactfully as I am capable!
If you have any time to work on this as a "bug", that would not be necessary or desirable, but if you have to leave it till next year gives you time, then I feel that a warning would be kind!
Just "upgraded" to the latest version but it's a couple of steps forwards and at least half a dozen backwards.
I'm not quite sure what other changes there were, but the ones I'd requested and you'd worked on were
a) The option to "Leave" the secondary Deck when Spreading the Primary Deck.
b) The option to not be prompted to gather the cards.
- - -
Where can I start?
Bad Boo's all round, except for only one thing.
Option (b) not to be prompted to gather the cards, works.
Everything else is bad and you've gone BACK on a number of the improvements you had made in the previous version! Very bad indeed!
"The Motherpeace trio" worked in the previous version and ONLY needed the convenience features that are a) and b) above. Now it does not work again - or perhaps I could FORCE it to work by multiplying the Specific Spreads and not using those upgrades that you just made. It is now such an ugly mess that I seriously doubt that ANYBODY will be doing it (including me) unless you can reverse what you've just done!
BAD BAD BOO's
What now happens
Using the "standard options" of "Park" and allowing "Prompts to Collect".
1) Open the Main Motherpeace Deck, as Primary, which most people are likely to do.
2) Open the Moon Phase Deck as Secondary.
3) Shuffle and Spread the Moon phase Deck first, using the unspecific "Motherpeace Layout - ANY" (which had worked before and in the last version). Now it doesn't work - it spreads the Main Motherpeace Deck, the Primary Deck instead!
4) SUCH a bad mistake that most people would not even bother continuing!
5) The shuffle and draw of the Main Deck seems to proceed OK. I get the prompt to Collect, but click on "No Thankyou".
But I'm no longer confident that the draw has been from the FULL Deck or just from those Card Positions not drawn in the first Spread. I've not yet got a "same card position" so my doubt seems well founded?
Using my prefered options of "Park" for the "Used" Deck, Leave for the "Spare" and "No Prompts to Collect", results in the same serious error of both Spreads drawing from the Main Deck - which kills the whole enterprise!
However now the Secondary Deck now doesn't even "Park" when it has been Spread. Now that's NOT what I was asking for!
I havn't tried each and every combination of those two options, but with the "Standard" choices AND my "prefered" options BOTH producing the DEATH of the "Motherpeace Multi-Deck Multi-Spread" experience, you can just imagine the list of expletives that are now gracing the airwaves!
Now none of these expletives were directed at you - I'm not like that!
Wot Wiv me being a Philospher and "former dabler" in programming can I offer some ideas to try to help please, (otherwise I'm gonna be a very unhappy bunny for the next year!)
- - -
I drew that divider line very meaningfully. There are some things which must be simply "Cut Out" and left behind, to get the progress required.
1)Sort the Motherpeace case and you will have sorted all the rest!
2) You will find that you need to stop thinking about "the case of the person just dabbling and using Multiple Decks for fun or for Deck Comparison". This is CRUCIAL and is a source of much of the rest...
Please take it from me.
If we can get back to how it was working and then "re-imagine" those two new options without that pre-conception, it will work not only for Motherpeace but for all the others AS WELL - I guarantee it! I'm not about having the program work "Just my Way". I've always been a "Choices Guy"!!
3) Multiple Decks shouldn't necessarily require being thought of as "Primary" and "Secondary", but that's the way you've done it, so I suggest we STICK with that and allow those words to give us the necessary precision of thought! This will be helpful as a "Datum"!
4) "Used" Deck and "Spare" Deck. I believe these are the concepts which are behind the debacle of the current version and almost fully responsible.
It looks to me like you're using the word "Used" in two different ways in your mind and in different places in the program.
In one place, you're remembering that the "Used" Deck is not identical with the "Primary" Deck, but at another place, you're subtly equating the two. That's how the evidence from the way Program now works points.
"Spare" Deck was never a good idea from any angle whatever. When using Multiple Decks, neither are "Spare"! They're both being used. OK at different times. This also allows an element of ambiguity to creep in!
5) It looks like you will continue making these mistakes as long as you continue using those concepts! I humbly suggest eradicating them both from your mind and from the program as soon as possible!
6) Much better concepts would be exising concepts within the program.
"Spread" and "Not Spread". (Well "Not Spread" is only implied...)
With the confusions you've been getting yourself into, and the mental knots which have been evident in the way you've described things, these older concepts will "Cut the Mustard".
They will give much greater clarity of thought and better communication between us - the two trying to sort this out.
7) Specifically for the current round of changes:-
a) "Deck being Spread" is either "Parked" or "Left"
b) "Deck Not being Spread" is either "Parked" or "Left" or "Closed"
c) and neither is "Used" at any time, because the word is clearly ambiguous in YOUR mind. And neither is "Spare", because they will both be used either in the first or the second draw.
However the return into "Old Errors" that I thought we'd ironed out indicates to me that to achieve progress it would be better to go back to 10.0.2.1 (a working configuration) and edit that, rather than trying with the frankly hopeless and confused 10.0.2.3. (Very Big Sorry! Humble, humble, groveling Yeti!)
Unless you can abandon the "old way of thinking" in the ambigous concepts "Used" and "Spare" I can't see us getting it right?
I know that this years "Development Phase" is over and therefore am not expecting you to do this soon.
I have therefore "Back-Graded" to version 10.0.2.1
where the "Motherpeace Trio" at least work, albeit with some inconveniences:-
and intend to stick with that until you have the time to "clear you mind".
Please, please, please, no offence intended.
You are and have been a wonderfully helpful "Programmer God". But even God's can't get it right evey time?
Regards
Greg the Apologetic Yeti
As a corrolary to that I'm thinking about "responsibility to other users" and am wondering whether to post a warning not to up-grade if you want to use the "Motherpeace Trio" of Decks.
Certainly to make or keep a backup of your existing configuration or "upgradeDOTexe" file, and then wait for news.
I don't want to embarras you and would word that as tactfully as I am capable!
If you have any time to work on this as a "bug", that would not be necessary or desirable, but if you have to leave it till next year gives you time, then I feel that a warning would be kind!
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Greg the Yeti
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Hi again. (and thanks for lots of new "goodies" in version 10 - really!)
However just a warning - if you feel unlike removing all code that references those new concepts of "Used" and "Spare", just think this. I confidently predict that every time that you alter code which references them, that these same errors will come back to haunt you (and us!). I just want to spare you that.
I was actually thinking, that to get rid of those ambiguous concepts may take more than going back to 10.0.2.1, since those concepts were there in the eariest versions of version 10 that I saw? Mistakes can sometimes be costly!
regards
Greg
I also have a personal responsibility, since those options that you put in for the parked Decks were a suggestion of mine last year - oh er...
However just a warning - if you feel unlike removing all code that references those new concepts of "Used" and "Spare", just think this. I confidently predict that every time that you alter code which references them, that these same errors will come back to haunt you (and us!). I just want to spare you that.
I was actually thinking, that to get rid of those ambiguous concepts may take more than going back to 10.0.2.1, since those concepts were there in the eariest versions of version 10 that I saw? Mistakes can sometimes be costly!
regards
Greg
I also have a personal responsibility, since those options that you put in for the parked Decks were a suggestion of mine last year - oh er...
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
OK thanks for pointing out that bug. There was a code branch where I had used a "greater than" sign instead of a "less than" sign and that was what was causing the problem. I have just uploaded a new version, 10.0.2.5. Please bear in mind that having a spreads menu on secondary decks was not part of the original design of version 10, this is code I added in the last couple of weeks at your request so it has not received all the attention in terms of testing and debugging that other features of version 10.0 have. Please try it again with the new version and let me know if you have any problems. Cheers.
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Re: Multiple Decks no longer can be "Spread"
Hi Richard,
thanks for a very rapid response! (and for being very forbearing with the great anxst of my last post!)
I've downloaded the new 10.0.2.5 and (now that I know that i have a working version to go back to) I wll test this as soon as... (By now that means tomorrow.)
Since I consider this "urgent" it will get all my attention!
Regards
Greg
Please also note two new "Moon Phase" Decks on the P2P. If you need to play with the Multiple Deck feature, they are a considerable improvement in look and are much more "intuitive" to use and "Read".
thanks for a very rapid response! (and for being very forbearing with the great anxst of my last post!)
I've downloaded the new 10.0.2.5 and (now that I know that i have a working version to go back to) I wll test this as soon as... (By now that means tomorrow.)
Since I consider this "urgent" it will get all my attention!
Regards
Greg
Please also note two new "Moon Phase" Decks on the P2P. If you need to play with the Multiple Deck feature, they are a considerable improvement in look and are much more "intuitive" to use and "Read".