Update
I've just posted on the support forum at phpbb so hopefully we'll get a response! I'll let you know what they say and we can go from there
Van
Registration Temporarily Suspended June 2007
Moderators: Programmer, WebWeaver, WillowsHeart
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*WillowsHeart*
- Registered User
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*WillowsHeart*
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Update
I've just posted on the support forum at phpbb so hopefully we'll get a response! I'll let you know what they say and we can go from there
Van
I've just posted on the support forum at phpbb so hopefully we'll get a response! I'll let you know what they say and we can go from there
Van
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Greg the Yeti
- Major Contributor
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Tue 01 May, 2007 3:11 pm
Registration Suspended
Hi Richard,
I must be one of your newer Orphalese owners and I agree with comments above that the program is already very good value! I have rapidly become hooked and involved. And in converting various actual Decks for the Program I've probably spent too much time on it recently too!
I'm sorry for having been a very demanding new user! I know I've made lots of suggestions recently, and I probably won't stop (because you can always say no!).
Can I make another BIG suggestion here, only because I think it might help YOU.
1: It struck me that the Program itself is very good value! Fact!
2: But that P2P Deck Share makes the value LUDICROUS! And probably illegal too, at least for a lot of us owners and sharers.
3: You've had agro from Deck Publishers, who probably see the program as a massive loophole in their power to control their copyright and get return for their authors and designers.
4: The Deck designers deserve their return, just like you do for this program. That's why I registered.
5: I'm CONVINCED that Orphalese (or programs like it) are the way forward for Card based 'Divination'. I like to get a feel of a Deck through its lwb (or even bigwhitebook!), but I hate fumbling through the paper book. Orphalese is so much more 'Direct'! Plus the Cards never wear out!
SO
Would it work to attempt to involve those same Publishers and Designers by creating a way for them to sell their wares through the program and the site.
A: Keep the P2P Deck Share but restrict it to only non Published work or Freeware.
B: Somehow create a closed system so that a Deck can be used by the program by a Registered user of that Deck but it's Graphics and Text not being directly and easilly copyable by the user. Perhaps passworded zips? Encryption of some kind handled directly by the program.
C: A better standard of Graphics for the 'For Sale' Decks. Must look good at half the screen high, or better.
D: Must have a complete set of the Text from the lwb (or bwb), appropriately within the Card Info and Any Spreads designed for the Deck.
E: Other Extra features:- Wallpapers, Meet the Creator, Sound effects, Sound Tracks, The normal gimmicks! The full Razz!
F: Of course the Space on the Web site to advertise and sell their Decks and persuade people to opt into an 'Honesty', 'Shareware' principle. 'If you like it and use it a lot but don't have the Card Copy then cough up to support the Designers' - kind of thing. Links to their web sites etc. Reciprocal Links on Their sites too!
I know there are a few Decks that I would love in better quality Graphics and with the full Text that went with it. Some Decks that are currently 'Out of Print' etc. Some not even available on the Deck Share.
I think it could be made to work and benefit YOU, the Publishers, the Designers and make Honest people out of us the Orphalese User.
I know I might get some people swear at me. But that never stopped me saying something important and right.
I hope it's a worthwile thought.
Regards Greg the Yeti
I must be one of your newer Orphalese owners and I agree with comments above that the program is already very good value! I have rapidly become hooked and involved. And in converting various actual Decks for the Program I've probably spent too much time on it recently too!
I'm sorry for having been a very demanding new user! I know I've made lots of suggestions recently, and I probably won't stop (because you can always say no!).
Can I make another BIG suggestion here, only because I think it might help YOU.
1: It struck me that the Program itself is very good value! Fact!
2: But that P2P Deck Share makes the value LUDICROUS! And probably illegal too, at least for a lot of us owners and sharers.
3: You've had agro from Deck Publishers, who probably see the program as a massive loophole in their power to control their copyright and get return for their authors and designers.
4: The Deck designers deserve their return, just like you do for this program. That's why I registered.
5: I'm CONVINCED that Orphalese (or programs like it) are the way forward for Card based 'Divination'. I like to get a feel of a Deck through its lwb (or even bigwhitebook!), but I hate fumbling through the paper book. Orphalese is so much more 'Direct'! Plus the Cards never wear out!
SO
Would it work to attempt to involve those same Publishers and Designers by creating a way for them to sell their wares through the program and the site.
A: Keep the P2P Deck Share but restrict it to only non Published work or Freeware.
B: Somehow create a closed system so that a Deck can be used by the program by a Registered user of that Deck but it's Graphics and Text not being directly and easilly copyable by the user. Perhaps passworded zips? Encryption of some kind handled directly by the program.
C: A better standard of Graphics for the 'For Sale' Decks. Must look good at half the screen high, or better.
D: Must have a complete set of the Text from the lwb (or bwb), appropriately within the Card Info and Any Spreads designed for the Deck.
E: Other Extra features:- Wallpapers, Meet the Creator, Sound effects, Sound Tracks, The normal gimmicks! The full Razz!
F: Of course the Space on the Web site to advertise and sell their Decks and persuade people to opt into an 'Honesty', 'Shareware' principle. 'If you like it and use it a lot but don't have the Card Copy then cough up to support the Designers' - kind of thing. Links to their web sites etc. Reciprocal Links on Their sites too!
I know there are a few Decks that I would love in better quality Graphics and with the full Text that went with it. Some Decks that are currently 'Out of Print' etc. Some not even available on the Deck Share.
I think it could be made to work and benefit YOU, the Publishers, the Designers and make Honest people out of us the Orphalese User.
I know I might get some people swear at me. But that never stopped me saying something important and right.
I hope it's a worthwile thought.
Regards Greg the Yeti
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purple_scorp
- Major Contributor
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2005 6:05 am
Registration Suspended
Hi Greg,
Don't think many publishers will come at this. There are a couple of users here (and I'm one of them) that Richard appointed as Administrators. One of our roles was to contact Publishers to gain authority/permission to use their decks.
Under Richard's direction, I dealt with US Games. They advised that they have a contract with Tarot.com that stipulates that their electronic decks may only be used with the software on the Tarot.com website (which is not Orphalese).
The arrangement/agreement that was made with US Games is that Orphalese could display up to six cards from each US published deck, and only for training/identification purposes. They weren't interested in the advertorial gains that could be achieved by teaming up with Orphalese.
There may be individual publishers that think differently. But the majority of decks are published under US Games.
Regards
purple_scorp
Don't think many publishers will come at this. There are a couple of users here (and I'm one of them) that Richard appointed as Administrators. One of our roles was to contact Publishers to gain authority/permission to use their decks.
Under Richard's direction, I dealt with US Games. They advised that they have a contract with Tarot.com that stipulates that their electronic decks may only be used with the software on the Tarot.com website (which is not Orphalese).
The arrangement/agreement that was made with US Games is that Orphalese could display up to six cards from each US published deck, and only for training/identification purposes. They weren't interested in the advertorial gains that could be achieved by teaming up with Orphalese.
There may be individual publishers that think differently. But the majority of decks are published under US Games.
Regards
purple_scorp
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Greg the Yeti
- Major Contributor
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Tue 01 May, 2007 3:11 pm
Registration Suspended
Hi Richard, purple_scorp, anyone,
What you say is important, but US Games don't do all the good Decks. Of my own collection I think only 1 or two are. Most are Lo Scarabeo, Llewellyn, Connections, AG Muller or smaller publishers. Yes sure it might be difficult but like Mikeeee above I think Orphalese is the best
and if some could be got on board, then that might just challenge US Games contract with Tarot.com??
Overnight I had another significant thought. To put as point G: above.
G: If Publishers could be Persuaded to allow Professional users to have use of the various Decks in their business, but of course only those that were properly Registered and paid for, then this would tap into that large market that Richard mentioned.
But none of this is going to count without those points A and B above, since without some security and control Publishers are always going to see Orphalese as a 'Gaping Chasm' into their Copyrights. One can't really blame them really??
Perhaps even if US Games couldn't be got on board then it might result in a liberating change of emphasis away from the ubiquitous Waite-Coleman Smith Decks. But in any case as far as I'm aware US Games have copyright only on their adaptions to that Deck not to the Original Deck itself, which has gone out of copyright now! I read about this on sacred-texts.com
Regards Greg the Yeti
What you say is important, but US Games don't do all the good Decks. Of my own collection I think only 1 or two are. Most are Lo Scarabeo, Llewellyn, Connections, AG Muller or smaller publishers. Yes sure it might be difficult but like Mikeeee above I think Orphalese is the best
and if some could be got on board, then that might just challenge US Games contract with Tarot.com??Overnight I had another significant thought. To put as point G: above.
G: If Publishers could be Persuaded to allow Professional users to have use of the various Decks in their business, but of course only those that were properly Registered and paid for, then this would tap into that large market that Richard mentioned.
But none of this is going to count without those points A and B above, since without some security and control Publishers are always going to see Orphalese as a 'Gaping Chasm' into their Copyrights. One can't really blame them really??
Perhaps even if US Games couldn't be got on board then it might result in a liberating change of emphasis away from the ubiquitous Waite-Coleman Smith Decks. But in any case as far as I'm aware US Games have copyright only on their adaptions to that Deck not to the Original Deck itself, which has gone out of copyright now! I read about this on sacred-texts.com
Regards Greg the Yeti
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Programmer
- Major Contributor
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- Location: Spain
- Contact:
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Hi Van,
It sounds interesting...I just emailed you with some questions about this. I can see the discussion becoming a bit technical so let's take it off-line until there is something to show for it.
Cheers,
Richard
It sounds interesting...I just emailed you with some questions about this. I can see the discussion becoming a bit technical so let's take it off-line until there is something to show for it.
Cheers,
Richard
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Programmer
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- Location: Spain
- Contact:
Registration Suspended
Hi Mikeeee,
Thanks for your comments, I am glad you feel that way. I just need to make some changes to the website and help file and then the registration page will be back up and running. Hopefully it won't be more than a week or two.
Cheers
Richard
Thanks for your comments, I am glad you feel that way. I just need to make some changes to the website and help file and then the registration page will be back up and running. Hopefully it won't be more than a week or two.
Cheers
Richard
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Programmer
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- Location: Spain
- Contact:
Registration Suspended
Hi Greg, Everyone
Greg, you have come up with a lot of good ideas in the last couple of days, some of which I am looking forward to programming, but in this post I want to challenge the sugggestion you make that the Deck Exchange is probably illegal, and especially for sharers and downloaders.
Personally, I am satisfied that the program is legally watertight, and has always been 100 ethical in that it only promotes, and does not detract from, the work of deck designers. When people see something they like they often go out and buy it. This is not just a hunch: when the previous Deck Exchange was running people were always posting on this forum how they bought such-and-such deck after first seeing here, and they wanted to let other users know about it, etc.
Unfortunately these testimonials were obviously not read by the publisher who threated to sue me, and after that happened (i.e. the threat), I decided to go with the P2P idea. It is obvious that by using P2P I am side-stepping the issue a bit, and I have shifted the risk towards the user, or really towards the Amercian users of the program. The copyright warnings I have put on the P2P tool are not just about covering my back end (as we database programmers like to call it), but also because I am really concerned that users might suffer some unexpected consequence from using the program, like getting sued by some publishing company or other.
It is a matter of recent history that the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) began to track down US citizens who had file-shared songs using P2P software and present them with punitive settlement claims, including costs. They could do this because when you use a P2P program, although you are personally anonymous, the modem or router you are using to connect is not anonymous. It has an IP address, and with a bit of effort another user of the program will be able to find that address out. This is true for all P2P software, including the Orphalese Tarot's P2P tool. By taking advantage of the legal situation in the USA the RIAA was able to take IP addresses and get account information, including street addresses, about users, by obliging their ISPs (such as AOL etc) to divulge these details under threat of prosecution. Thus they could know where to deliver the suit. This is no doubt quite astonishing to a lot of people outside the USA, but it is true. You can find out more about this subject on sites like www.eff.org.
I have to say that I sympathise with the musicians that the RIAA was trying to protect, and I am sure some of them were appreciative of the RIAA's efforts in (indirectly) trying to safeguard their royalties. But music is a medium in itself. If I download a song I can play it on my music player and it is no different to owning a legitimately licensed recording. Music is transmissible over the internet. Tarot decks aren't. They don't fit down the wire. All you can send is a photo, and if people like the photo they will go and look at the original. If I had the slightest feeling or knowledge that I was hurting any tarot artist I would feel absolutely terrible. If I was breaking the law it would pale into insignificance besides that.
Anyway, Greg, I have thought about those kind of co-marketing ideas. It is all about numbers. It is really only about a year ago that Purple Scorp, Webweaver (and later joined by others such as Chriske - anyone heard from him???) and me were all trying to get publishers interested. They just weren't. I can't really blame them, because we are soooooooooooo small that any advantage from working together would be smaller than the cost of getting one person to work on it. If you log into the Deck Exchange you will see 15 to 30 users. The total number of individual users who logged in yesterday was 104. When I logged on to Azureus this afternoon to get the lastest installment of my favourite UK sitcom the number of users logged on was about 1,500,000. I reckon that when it is about ten thousand Orphalese users we can start approaching people with this sort of deal...Not so much a business plan, more of a pipe-dream .-)
What would really surpise you is the amount of stuff to do with quality control that we had going already when the first DE up and running. There was a committee of users co-ordinating together to get all the LWBs complete etc. This worked because for each deck there could be only one authorised version. there was no repetition. This repetion is an unfortunate aspect of any P2P system, there really isn't a lot one can do about it.
Anyway, I have already spent much longer writing this post than I expected, and now I have to go out. Keep the good ideas coming, dude, I have noted them all, and the bug reports
Cheers
Richard
Greg, you have come up with a lot of good ideas in the last couple of days, some of which I am looking forward to programming, but in this post I want to challenge the sugggestion you make that the Deck Exchange is probably illegal, and especially for sharers and downloaders.
Personally, I am satisfied that the program is legally watertight, and has always been 100 ethical in that it only promotes, and does not detract from, the work of deck designers. When people see something they like they often go out and buy it. This is not just a hunch: when the previous Deck Exchange was running people were always posting on this forum how they bought such-and-such deck after first seeing here, and they wanted to let other users know about it, etc.
Unfortunately these testimonials were obviously not read by the publisher who threated to sue me, and after that happened (i.e. the threat), I decided to go with the P2P idea. It is obvious that by using P2P I am side-stepping the issue a bit, and I have shifted the risk towards the user, or really towards the Amercian users of the program. The copyright warnings I have put on the P2P tool are not just about covering my back end (as we database programmers like to call it), but also because I am really concerned that users might suffer some unexpected consequence from using the program, like getting sued by some publishing company or other.
It is a matter of recent history that the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) began to track down US citizens who had file-shared songs using P2P software and present them with punitive settlement claims, including costs. They could do this because when you use a P2P program, although you are personally anonymous, the modem or router you are using to connect is not anonymous. It has an IP address, and with a bit of effort another user of the program will be able to find that address out. This is true for all P2P software, including the Orphalese Tarot's P2P tool. By taking advantage of the legal situation in the USA the RIAA was able to take IP addresses and get account information, including street addresses, about users, by obliging their ISPs (such as AOL etc) to divulge these details under threat of prosecution. Thus they could know where to deliver the suit. This is no doubt quite astonishing to a lot of people outside the USA, but it is true. You can find out more about this subject on sites like www.eff.org.
I have to say that I sympathise with the musicians that the RIAA was trying to protect, and I am sure some of them were appreciative of the RIAA's efforts in (indirectly) trying to safeguard their royalties. But music is a medium in itself. If I download a song I can play it on my music player and it is no different to owning a legitimately licensed recording. Music is transmissible over the internet. Tarot decks aren't. They don't fit down the wire. All you can send is a photo, and if people like the photo they will go and look at the original. If I had the slightest feeling or knowledge that I was hurting any tarot artist I would feel absolutely terrible. If I was breaking the law it would pale into insignificance besides that.
Anyway, Greg, I have thought about those kind of co-marketing ideas. It is all about numbers. It is really only about a year ago that Purple Scorp, Webweaver (and later joined by others such as Chriske - anyone heard from him???) and me were all trying to get publishers interested. They just weren't. I can't really blame them, because we are soooooooooooo small that any advantage from working together would be smaller than the cost of getting one person to work on it. If you log into the Deck Exchange you will see 15 to 30 users. The total number of individual users who logged in yesterday was 104. When I logged on to Azureus this afternoon to get the lastest installment of my favourite UK sitcom the number of users logged on was about 1,500,000. I reckon that when it is about ten thousand Orphalese users we can start approaching people with this sort of deal...Not so much a business plan, more of a pipe-dream .-)
What would really surpise you is the amount of stuff to do with quality control that we had going already when the first DE up and running. There was a committee of users co-ordinating together to get all the LWBs complete etc. This worked because for each deck there could be only one authorised version. there was no repetition. This repetion is an unfortunate aspect of any P2P system, there really isn't a lot one can do about it.
Anyway, I have already spent much longer writing this post than I expected, and now I have to go out. Keep the good ideas coming, dude, I have noted them all, and the bug reports
Cheers
Richard
Registration Suspended
Just though I'd through in my two cents...
Orphalese is a wonderful program - the best Tarot program I've used (and I don't use any other programs since I found Orphalese). It has the best functionality, flexibility and organizational abilities one could want from a Tarot program.
Personally, I don't believe the Deck Exchange is needed - I would actually prefer an option to install it or not. I often get the impression that the Exchange is the main draw of the program, and all the functions that make the Orphalese the best of the bunch gets lost in shuffle.
Compared with other programs (even the so-called professional programs) Orphalese is lightyears ahead and I'm surprised this message isn't out there. With such a terrific product to promote, the Deck Exchange is a minor goodie compared with the rest of the program and we can certainly survive without it (as do other Tarot programs).
Whatever decisions you need to make for the future, I just wanted to let you know Orphalese Tarot is a fine product and I thank you for your program and all the support you have provided.
Orphalese is a wonderful program - the best Tarot program I've used (and I don't use any other programs since I found Orphalese). It has the best functionality, flexibility and organizational abilities one could want from a Tarot program.
Personally, I don't believe the Deck Exchange is needed - I would actually prefer an option to install it or not. I often get the impression that the Exchange is the main draw of the program, and all the functions that make the Orphalese the best of the bunch gets lost in shuffle.
Compared with other programs (even the so-called professional programs) Orphalese is lightyears ahead and I'm surprised this message isn't out there. With such a terrific product to promote, the Deck Exchange is a minor goodie compared with the rest of the program and we can certainly survive without it (as do other Tarot programs).
Whatever decisions you need to make for the future, I just wanted to let you know Orphalese Tarot is a fine product and I thank you for your program and all the support you have provided.
Registration Suspended
I'm a professional programmer, maybe I can help with future development. I've created many famous programs over the last decades..